can we get an official stand on legendary pets?

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ursu

Disciple
External Player
I've seen here people suggesting to be straight up eliminated from the game or having ridiculous prices attached to them.
Since neither the herc or the nix are in beta, could we have an official position from devs please?
Thanks!
 

Sushi

GM
Staff member
Game Master
Server booster
External Player
Discord
Sushi#3688
Class
Venomancer
Name
Sushi
I've seen here people suggesting to be straight up eliminated from the game or having ridiculous prices attached to them.
Since neither the herc or the nix are in beta, could we have an official position from devs please?
Thanks!
We are still thinking about the price of these pets.
We assume the introduction of legendary pets with the following conditions:
1) First of all, there will be a high level restriction, because at low levels these pets will be a problem.
And also players will tame, upgrade and trade other pets until they can buy the legendary one
2) The price will be high as possible so that players have an incentive to tame and trade regular game pets (as if a legendary ones weren’t at all)
3) And of course, we'll nerf it. So veno with the legendary pet will not be OP.
These pets will have to be introduced into the game, because it was so before

What are your thoughts on this?
 

dale981

Scout
External Player
Discord
Legion#8706
Class
Venomancer
Name
Legion
We are still thinking about the price of these pets.
We assume the introduction of legendary pets with the following conditions:
1) First of all, there will be a high level restriction, because at low levels these pets will be a problem.
And also players will tame, upgrade and trade other pets until they can buy the legendary one
2) The price will be as high as possible so that players have an incentive to tame and trade regular game pets (as if a legendary ones weren’t at all)
3) And of course, we'll nerf it. So veno with the legendary pet will not be OP.
These pets will have to be introduced into the game, because it was so before

What are your thoughts on this?
1) Perfect!
2) Perfect!
3) Perfect! :love:
This will put venos on right spot among other classes, make event dungeon Dragon temple interesting again for farming and pet eggs + rare pet skill scrolls will have their place on market. And this statement comes from someone who will play venomancer at release. :)
 

ursu

Disciple
External Player
We are still thinking about the price of these pets.
We assume the introduction of legendary pets with the following conditions:
1) First of all, there will be a high level restriction, because at low levels these pets will be a problem.
And also players will tame, upgrade and trade other pets until they can buy the legendary one
2) The price will be high as possible so that players have an incentive to tame and trade regular game pets (as if a legendary ones weren’t at all)
3) And of course, we'll nerf it. So veno with the legendary pet will not be OP.
These pets will have to be introduced into the game, because it was so before

What are your thoughts on this?
so, besides making them hard to get, they're going to be nerfed pets?

welp, you guys have fun then.

Cheers, I'm out.
 

Sushi

GM
Staff member
Game Master
Server booster
External Player
Discord
Sushi#3688
Class
Venomancer
Name
Sushi
so, besides making them hard to get, they're going to be nerfed pets?

welp, you guys have fun then.

Cheers, I'm out.
Pets will match the old 136 version
But they will not be available for purchase from first levels for obvious reasons.
We're still thinking about level restriction and the price
Any suggestions in this regard?
 

dale981

Scout
External Player
Discord
Legion#8706
Class
Venomancer
Name
Legion
Legendary pets are OP. Thats a fact. They were cash shop only pets and quite expencive. IMO even slightly nerfed they will be still much stronger than any normal pet. Also they already have very strong and rare pet skills. Take a look at this pet stat list. Find Blazing Phoenix and compare it with best flying pvp pet Petite Sawfly. You will understand why venomancers were so OP back then. http://www.ecatomb.tk/pwi.ecatomb.net/pet-list.html
About level restrict and price..no idea. Maybe around lvl 80 or 90 idk. We need more ideas and sugestions pls. ?
 
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ursu

Disciple
External Player
Pets will match the old 136 version
But they will not be available for purchase from first levels for obvious reasons.
We're still thinking about level restriction and the price
Any suggestions in this regard?
Phoenix was broken in pvp in early levels due to bleed skill being bugged. Wasn't a problem towards endgame.
Herc was never an issue. Sure, it's the best tanking pet, but it's a front loaded investment that pays off towards the end game. Just saying "it's OP we nerf it" doesn't help anyone. People who don't know will think just having it it's going to make them gods, anyone else will just roll their eyes.
I agree with a level restriction. Set a minimum level for herc at 60. Fix the phonenix for PvP. Let everything else be.
Price? sure it should be relevant. But it should never be more than the original pet was in the classic PWI.

I was happy when I saw this server setup, yay, finally a nice version of my favorite game, handled by people who seem to know what they do technically. Like "hell yea, here we go!".
Right now? I literally have no interest to play or to support something like this. I don't know what else is going to be nerfed because some kids are louder than others. Are you guys going to nerf the BIDS cause it 1 shots barbs? Are we gonna change the stun duration "cause it's no fun getting stunlocked by a BM .!!!one1!..."?? How about nerfing archers "cause it's not fair that they can take 15% of a boss's hp just with 1 shot" or modify cleric's running speed "cause the damn thing takes hours to run through a god damn TT" .... "someone fix mah barb 'cause it takes forever to kill anything" ... etc, etc.
Where is this going to stop?

Legendary pets are OP. Thats a fact. They were cash shop only pets and quite expencive. IMO even slightly nerfed they will be still much stronger than any normal pet. Also they already have very strong and rare pet skills. Take a look at this pet stat list. Find Blazing Phoenix and compare it with best flying pvp pet Petite Sawfly. You will understand why venomancers were so OP back then. http://www.ecatomb.tk/pwi.ecatomb.net/pet-list.html
I know why venomancers were OP until endgame in PvP. I played with and against them and their pets at the peak of their "OP"ness. Once you're over 90 and have decent gear they're not a problem anymore. Heck, an archer can just pew-pew the veno before the damn pet reaches him. Wizard can mess the pet's AI, etc, etc. Dead pet dead veno. If nix venos are a real issue endgame you're playing the game wrong.

@dale981 , @Sushi
Even on official, having venos with legendary pets from low level never skewed up the population. On all the private servers I tried there was never a problem of lets say 50% veno population cause "mah pets OP". Sure, there were a few, but the players spread through classes was pretty much even. Barbs were always hard to find, good clerics a comodity, archers were a dime a dozen and no one needed wizards until PvP or TW.
I don't get where the problem is.
But anyway, I wasted already a lot more time on this forum that I should have. Here just as in life it seems whoever cries out louder gets all the attention on short term without anyone thinking of long term implications.

@Sushi you have a nice thing going here, don't mess it up.

I'm out boys. I'm done with this server. See ya around on interwebs.

Cheers
 

caerula

Novice
External Player
Name
Vukase
We are still thinking about the price of these pets.
We assume the introduction of legendary pets with the following conditions:
1) First of all, there will be a high level restriction, because at low levels these pets will be a problem.
And also players will tame, upgrade and trade other pets until they can buy the legendary one
2) The price will be high as possible so that players have an incentive to tame and trade regular game pets (as if a legendary ones weren’t at all)
3) And of course, we'll nerf it. So veno with the legendary pet will not be OP.
These pets will have to be introduced into the game, because it was so before

What are your thoughts on this?

I actually like this idea, too. I’ve always been a huge fan of the veno class but in my opinion the legendary pets kind of ruin it. OPness aside, they also raise the bar to such point that a veno with a regular/rare pet is seen as inferior or maybe even useless to some extent. I do recall people calling for a veno preferably WITH herc on WC in the early years on the international server.

As mentioned in ExternalPW 1.3.6 – x1 Features:
>>There is no items that affect the balance in the Boutique (rare stuff / dragon orbs) <<

If we want a game that does not involve paying money in order to gain more power/benefits, then the legendary pets should be nerved in some way as well. Period. If it’s not for the sake of PVP it’s for the sake of the economy ingame (anyone remember venos with Herc soloing TT/HH during 2x drops?)
I agree on a high level requirement. About its pricing I don’t really care that much. I’ve never had a Herc or Nix myself, and I’m not really planning on getting one either since there’s plenty of normal fun pets around tbh. Besides, what’s wrong with some diversity in pets among venos? Everyone using either a Herc or Nix would be pretty boring if you ask me :/
 

schokoketzer

Expert
External Player
Since this seems to be a very divisive topic i will add my thoughts aswell, purely on herc thou since i cant say that much about nix

First of all, herc is pretty op in pve, it allows venos to solo content other classes need a party for. This is even better on low population servers since it is harder to find squads there. Also hercs shine against lvl150/? mobs, allowing them to be tank, healer and dps in one character. Now there are players that are used to this power level or love soloing dungeons and dont mind spending some $ to do that. If its too expensive or too weak you loose those players. Now lets assume this is neither good nor bad and think about the scenarios

1. Herc Level Requirement
- lvl1 would allow venos to progress/level with ease, solo quest bosses and fbs but could also help other players progress by asking their veno friend to help with either of these challenges.
- lvl60+ would make the veno use normal pets for a while, catch/trade for legendary ones and put their leveling/questing on par with other classes. At 60 they would need to level herc which can be a pain but its not that bad at 60. They can start soloing TT or tanking for partys
- lvl80+probably too late, leveling pet is rather annoying, already past a lot of content that you wish you had a herc for and venos used to having a herc might have quit already

2. Herc price points
- if its too cheap everyone will get one, therefore removing the relevance of normal pets, legendary pet hunt/trading or dragon temple skill farming.
- if its too expensive only a select few will put in the investment, thus leaving a pretty big disparity in power level between those few and the rest.
What are good price points? Hard to tell since people have different incomes/expecations, for me personally i would say
cheap: 20$ medium: 50-70$ expensive: 150$+

3. Nerf Herc stats
- gotta be careful with how you approach this. Since they are considered legendary nerfing them too hard would make venos unhappy, not interested in buying one or feel like loosing their class identity by not allowing them to solo something because herc is weak. Either way i think a small nerf is warranted but not necessary per se.

4. Make herc farmable
- You could consider adding some way of farming herc instead of adding it to the boutique or in addition to that. Only makes sense thou if the herc is more expensive and still need to find a reasonable way to farm the source of force/feathers
- this could be something adding them as a rare drop to some mobs for grind, as a reward for bhs/fbs or potential rewards for ingame events. The last one might be a good option since that increases interest in events and could improve retention.
- Its also worth considering that legendary pets in boutique can be a good way to earn some money for hosting/developing your private server

So i would suggest the following
- level 60 requirement for herc
- herc can be bought in boutique for 60$
- herc is farmable in some way, either by some non-trivial dungeons, grinding XY for a longer time or doing events
- slight nerf to herc stats, lets say 10-15%
 
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dale981

Scout
External Player
Discord
Legion#8706
Class
Venomancer
Name
Legion
I was reading a lot and thinking about this subject in last 2 days trying to think what would be good solution. I also talked to friends who played the game back then with me. First of all I have to ask this forum a question. Server devs said ExternalPW is going to be v1.3.6 which is same as first version of PWI started in september 2008. Do you guys think we should strictly stick to this (1.3.6) version without any changes in gameplay and only add/change QoL or aesthetics? Depending on your answer I can offer 2 solutions. I remind you this is my opinion only so please be civilized and constructive.

1. If you answer is YES then suggested solution will be to remove completely venomancer premium pets Hercules and Phoenix. Why remove? Simply because those pets were not present in PW v1.3.6. Game was originally designed without those pets in mind. And here is the proof. Herc and Phoenix were added to the game in december 2008. in PWI expansion The Lost Empire which was v1.3.9 ~4 months later. Herc and Nix were added as quite expensive cash shop only pets. That's why IMO they were so OP so players would actually buy them. Source: https://pwi.gamepedia.com/PWI_The_Lost_Empire

2. If your answer is NO then solution would be to add those pets in game however not without some restrictions.
a. Level requirement - Level req. for premium pets should be carefully adjusted. Not very low or very high. IMO 60 is too low. 90 is too high. So my suggestion would be...70 or 80 and if I have to choose I would say....level 70. Leveling pet to 70 isn't too hard in CoF and game content becomes harder (FB69/TT etc).

b. Price - Now this is hard one. How to determine the price that would fit everyone? I think @schokoketzer is right. 50-70$ looks like a fair price to me. However there's is one thing we should consider here. Premium pets are made from 9999 items (source of force or phoenix feathers). Those items were in boxes (random amount from 10-50 per box). To determine the price of pet we actually have to determine the price of single box.

c. Pet nerf - Oh boy...let me put my heavy armor before I continue. This topic is dangerous. :D I was thinking about this a lot. Also I talked to friends and we came to the conclusion that in later game/endgame ~90+ when players become better geared and generally stronger Phoenix (only if bleed bug is fixed in this client!) won't be so OP in PVP for some classes (HA/LA). I've noticed some ppl here are upset about nerfing Herc/Nix..no idea why when prolly some of them won't even play venomancer. So..ok let's make this fun for everyone. If the bleed bug is fixed don't nerf Herc/Nix. However, raise level requirement from 70 to 80, when Phoenix will still be OP but not very OP like in early game. Hercules will always be OP in PVE.

d. Farming premium pets - Like @schokoketzer said this can be solved by making premium pet box as rare drop or reward from FB/BH or special events. This should be done carefully. Drop rates can easily make a mess. Second way could be in players gold/coin Auction house trade like it was on official PW. However this was always considered as slightly P2W.

For the best possible solution we need more suggestions/opinions so please tell us what you think. ;)
 
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2020

Disciple
External Player
Discord
2020
leave the game as it was 136. don't change anything. each class has it's advantages and disadvantages. only poor players want to change the game. just play the class you think you are good at and stop nagging continuously.
 

Djo

Expert
External Player
Class
Blademaster
Name
Djo
If you made your class based on a single pet, then you know there's a problem.

If it wasn't in this version before, then it shouldn't be. The only reason people want them is so they can solo pretty much everything and they have the $$$ to do so :)
 

Zeriath

Scout
External Player
Class
Cleric
If want to keep as possible the original game version , pets should not be added . Remember that original game started to be unbalanced from that points : 1) Legendary pets on venos , 2) Introduction of stealth , bp and atk/def levels and 3) Genies .After these milestones , game was not the same again ,never got back that aura ...... I prefer if possible to not do the same mistakes . Happy to found a nice 1.3.6 with original as possible content . Looking forward at that :)
 

caerula

Novice
External Player
Name
Vukase
So I actually had to look it up myself since I couldn’t remember whether the legendary pets were part of the game upon initial release or not. Turns out, they indeed weren’t…

As has been mentioned by dale already, Herc and Nix were released within the Lost Empire expansion in December 2008. As such, I'm wondering if they should even exist on this server at all... personally I agree with the idea to leave them out completely.
 

Sushi

GM
Staff member
Game Master
Server booster
External Player
Discord
Sushi#3688
Class
Venomancer
Name
Sushi
Guys, there is a special service - Wayback Machine
It's the internet archieve, let's take a look here:

160


So, there is an entries about herc and nix since December 2008, which basically indicate their release at this time
And as we know, "The lost empire" expansion released December 3rd, 2008
And then in May 13, 2009 was released "Age of Spirit" expansion (genies and other stuff like that)

By the way, u can use a wayback machine for viewing a drop rates, old mob info or whatever else
You're welcome :pigwink:
 
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